Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by AJS on Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:35 am

"I would be pleased to be proved wrong."

Hello. I can't do that. I repeat, though, that unless you believe in political and police corruption on a colossal and completely unprecedented scale in the UK - big enough to destroy Grange evidence - then the photos of the parent and the artwork and images of his "transitioning" to bundleman will come into the public domain sooner rather than later.

That parent's knowledge and image is already worth at least 50-100 000 for a tabloid exclusive. Leaving financial incentives aside even the highest state secrets from the most ruthless regimes don't stay secret in the end. I've mentioned before that proof  of all the Nazi regime's crimes came out. In addition,  both Orwell and Arthur Koestler were driven almost insane by the conviction - stronger than yours- that the state crimes and secrets of the Soviet Union would never ever be recognized by the outside world: Orwell died young without knowing that his pessimism and despair was unfounded, thank God; Koestler eventually killed himself.  It's much more difficult to hide the facts than most people think.

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Watcher on Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:13 am

AJS wrote:"I would be pleased to be proved wrong."

Hello. I can't do that. I repeat, though, that unless you believe in political and police corruption on a colossal and completely unprecedented scale in the UK - big enough to destroy Grange evidence - then the photos of the parent and the artwork and images of his "transitioning" to bundleman will come into the public domain sooner rather than later.

That parent's knowledge and image is already worth at least 50-100 000 for a tabloid exclusive. Leaving financial incentives aside even the highest state secrets from the most ruthless regimes don't stay secret in the end. I've mentioned before that proof  of all the Nazi regime's crimes came out. In addition,  both Orwell and Arthur Koestler were driven almost insane by the conviction - stronger than yours- that the state crimes and secrets of the Soviet Union would never ever be recognized by the outside world: Orwell died young without knowing that his pessimism and despair was unfounded, thank God; Koestler eventually killed himself.  It's much more difficult to hide the facts than most people think.

Morning AJS.
I suspect one of the reasons there has been little released about ''Tannerman'' is because of the rather embarrassing issues it would raise for the UK police who ''assisted'' the PJ in the early days of the investigation.
It is something I have written about from time to time - the assumption is often made that the only evidence available, prior to anything new collected by Operation Grange, is contained within the PJ files. I don't believe that is the case, and I am not referring to the pro conspiracy theories about ''unpublished files''

In the immediate post-disappearance days Leicestershire Police, possibly with the assistance of other forces, appear to have made contact with all the returning families from the Ocean Club. There clearly wasn't time to interview them individually before they left Portugal. From references made in a number of documents in the public domain, it would appear that the contact was in the form of questionnaires, which they completed and returned to the police.

In the days immediately following the ''Tannerman'' revelation by Andy Redwood, one newspaper report referred to the family concerned having been in contact with the police in the early stages and this appears to have arisen as a result of the questionnaires.

This throws up the following question: Why where the dots not 'joined up' in the early stages, and the possibility that the man sighted was returning from the night creche considered?

It also raises the following question: What happened to the questionnaires? Were they passed on to the PJ as a matter of routine, or were they investigated by the Leicestershire and other UK forces and only passed on if they were felt to contain relevant information? It is impossible to tell from the PJ files as, due to the agreement reached between Portugal and the UK, they would not have been published with the file at the shelving of the case.

In effect it appears that the information required to explain and rule out the Tanner sighting was in the hands of the UK police in the early stages. If it was never passed on, it suggests the UK police never joined the dots. If it was passed on, it indicates neither force joined the dots. Either way, it does not inspire confidence that the McCanns were able to continue for years with their "Look over here!" tactics, completely unchallenged
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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Grom on Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:43 am

There are a couple of examples in the files of UK policemen consulting the questionnaires. I have seen nothing to suggest the PJ looked at them. That suggests to me that the PJ didn't have them. Op Task used HOLMES and, according to their debrief, gave the PJ access, but they didn't use it. The areas of responsibility aren't clear. Were Op Task investigating or simply collecting information for the PJ? If they were investigating they should have analysed the questionnaires. If not, they should have provided paper copies of them to the PJ because that's how they worked.

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by enyam on Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:45 am

Watcher wrote:
It also raises the following question: What happened to the questionnaires? Were they passed on to the PJ as a matter of routine, or were they investigated by the Leicestershire and other UK forces and only passed on if they were felt to contain relevant information? It is impossible to tell from the PJ files as, due to the agreement reached between Portugal and the UK, they would not have been published with the file at the shelving of the case.


Good question regarding the questionnaires,from op Task debrief.



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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Travers on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:00 am

The problem with HOLMES, for the PJ, is that it operated in English and the PJ had neither the linguistic ability nor experience to use it effectively. I'm sure it could have been a valuable tool in processing the questionnaires, but it would have needed to have been done by TASK people, probably on their own initiative, rather than at the request of PJ.

None of this is a restriction to OG if they are doing their job properly.

My major concern with OG is that it won't be a team member who will be making the final decisions, but someone much further up the command chain and possibly not even a member of the UK Justice system.
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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Watcher on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:23 am

enyam wrote:
Watcher wrote:
It also raises the following question: What happened to the questionnaires? Were they passed on to the PJ as a matter of routine, or were they investigated by the Leicestershire and other UK forces and only passed on if they were felt to contain relevant information? It is impossible to tell from the PJ files as, due to the agreement reached between Portugal and the UK, they would not have been published with the file at the shelving of the case.


Good question regarding the questionnaires,from op Task debrief.




Thanks for that quote - I couldn't remember where I had seen it
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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Admin2 on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:34 am

Travers wrote:The problem with HOLMES, for the PJ, is that it operated in English and the PJ had neither the linguistic ability nor experience to use it effectively. I'm sure it could have been a valuable tool in processing the questionnaires, but it would have needed to have been done by TASK people, probably on their own initiative, rather than at the request of PJ.

None of this is a restriction to OG if they are doing their job properly.

My major concern with OG is that it won't be a team member who will be making the final decisions, but someone much further up the command chain and possibly not even a member of the UK Justice system.

Nicely put Travers, and I agree the final decision will be above the heads of OG.


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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Admin2 on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:46 am

AJS wrote:"I would be pleased to be proved wrong."

Hello. I can't do that. I repeat, though, that unless you believe in political and police corruption on a colossal and completely unprecedented scale in the UK - big enough to destroy Grange evidence - then the photos of the parent and the artwork and images of his "transitioning" to bundleman will come into the public domain sooner rather than later.

That parent's knowledge and image is already worth at least 50-100 000 for a tabloid exclusive. Leaving financial incentives aside even the highest state secrets from the most ruthless regimes don't stay secret in the end. I've mentioned before that proof  of all the Nazi regime's crimes came out. In addition,  both Orwell and Arthur Koestler were driven almost insane by the conviction - stronger than yours- that the state crimes and secrets of the Soviet Union would never ever be recognized by the outside world: Orwell died young without knowing that his pessimism and despair was unfounded, thank God; Koestler eventually killed himself.  It's much more difficult to hide the facts than most people think.

I don't believe in a large scale conspiracy.

However, I would suggest the operating parameters for OG were made higher up.

Also, I doubt whether the vast majority of the public is even vaguely interested in the case and they have been presented with so much rubbish in the MSM.

Whether any more material is published on the background to the case is open to debate, and personally I would suggest that there would be egg on too many faces for anything else than another shelving of the case, without any further 'progress.
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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Travers on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:53 am

Shelving the case won't do anything for the McCann, who, without a convicted culprit will never escape the public conception that they 'got away with it'

Such is karma
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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Admin2 on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:55 am

Travers wrote:Shelving the case won't do anything for the McCann, who, without a convicted culprit will never escape the public conception that they 'got away with it'

Such is karma


I certainly agree with that.
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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by AJS on Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:13 pm

"I don't believe in a large scale conspiracy.

However, I would suggest the operating parameters for OG were made higher up...Whether any more material is published on the background to the case is open to debate, and personally I would suggest that there would be egg on too many faces for anything else than another shelving of the case, without any further 'progress."

Hi. But as I've pointed out elsewhere about others you are making a cast-iron guarantee that you will never know the truth about this case.

How can you? Since you have no faith in your own police force or government to act in your interests and you believe them capable of blocking the emergence of the truth then it follows at once that whatever Grange or the CPS report you will never know whether to believe it. That leaves you rudderless.

But something else also follows from that reasoning: that whoever dealt with the child, say hypothetically K&G McCann, don't believe what you do at all but have an infinitely more comfortable and secure position. The fix is in and they have nothing much to fear, apparently,  whereas you, a decent and upright citizen who has done nothing wrong, are  left rudderless. Is that really how a democratic society works? Why on earth would it have evolved in such a self-defeating way that penalises the good and puts bad people - a threat to any community - in a more comfortable position that you?  

None of that is a criticism of you - far from it, I admire you - and I don't in any sense state that you are in the wrong. But I'm bewildered that anyone should believe such a thing without cast-iron evidence that our institutions - the police, the CPS, the government - are corrupted and useless. When were they corrupted and who did it?

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by pathfinder73 on Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:49 pm

They would require to prove a motive for the death to convince a jury. That could be a number of possibilities at present.

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Grom on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:22 pm

AJS wrote:"I don't believe in a large scale conspiracy.

However, I would suggest the operating parameters for OG were made higher up...Whether any more material is published on the background to the case is open to debate, and personally I would suggest that there would be egg on too many faces for anything else than another shelving of the case, without any further 'progress."

Hi. But as I've pointed out elsewhere about others you are making a cast-iron guarantee that you will never know the truth about this case.

How can you? Since you have no faith in your own police force or government to act in your interests and you believe them capable of blocking the emergence of the truth then it follows at once that whatever Grange or the CPS report you will never know whether to believe it. That leaves you rudderless.

But something else also follows from that reasoning: that whoever dealt with the child, say hypothetically K&G McCann, don't believe what you do at all but have an infinitely more comfortable and secure position. The fix is in and they have nothing much to fear, apparently,  whereas you, a decent and upright citizen who has done nothing wrong, are  left rudderless. Is that really how a democratic society works? Why on earth would it have evolved in such a self-defeating way that penalises the good and puts bad people - a threat to any community - in a more comfortable position that you?  

None of that is a criticism of you - far from it, I admire you - and I don't in any sense state that you are in the wrong. But I'm bewildered that anyone should believe such a thing without cast-iron evidence that our institutions - the police, the CPS, the government - are corrupted and useless. When were they corrupted and who did it?

Neither institutions nor individuals need to be corrupt to make wrong decisions. Wrong decisions can be made with the best of intentions. Only in hindsight do those concerned realise that they might have got it wrong. Individuals and institutions then begin to calculate the damage they might sustain and how to avoid that. I see this case as involving an excess of sympathy coupled with a lack of critical thinking, a readiness to believe that British is best, and a lack of foresight; not corruption as such.

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by AJS on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:04 am

Hello. I don't have the same take on the case as you do but I'm not in the least bewildered by what you've expressed. It seems a perfectly valid argument to me.

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Slartibartfast on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:17 am

Grom wrote:
AJS wrote:"I don't believe in a large scale conspiracy.

However, I would suggest the operating parameters for OG were made higher up...Whether any more material is published on the background to the case is open to debate, and personally I would suggest that there would be egg on too many faces for anything else than another shelving of the case, without any further 'progress."

Hi. But as I've pointed out elsewhere about others you are making a cast-iron guarantee that you will never know the truth about this case.

How can you? Since you have no faith in your own police force or government to act in your interests and you believe them capable of blocking the emergence of the truth then it follows at once that whatever Grange or the CPS report you will never know whether to believe it. That leaves you rudderless.

But something else also follows from that reasoning: that whoever dealt with the child, say hypothetically K&G McCann, don't believe what you do at all but have an infinitely more comfortable and secure position. The fix is in and they have nothing much to fear, apparently,  whereas you, a decent and upright citizen who has done nothing wrong, are  left rudderless. Is that really how a democratic society works? Why on earth would it have evolved in such a self-defeating way that penalises the good and puts bad people - a threat to any community - in a more comfortable position that you?  

None of that is a criticism of you - far from it, I admire you - and I don't in any sense state that you are in the wrong. But I'm bewildered that anyone should believe such a thing without cast-iron evidence that our institutions - the police, the CPS, the government - are corrupted and useless. When were they corrupted and who did it?

Neither institutions nor individuals need to be corrupt to make wrong decisions. Wrong decisions can be made with the best of intentions. Only in hindsight do those concerned realise that they might have got it wrong. Individuals and institutions then begin to calculate the damage they might sustain and how to avoid that. I see this case as involving an excess of sympathy coupled with a lack of critical thinking, a readiness to believe that British is best, and a lack of foresight; not corruption as such.

That tends to be my take on the situation with a bit of opportunism thrown in by some of the early players.
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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Montclair on Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:32 am

Travers wrote:The problem with HOLMES, for the PJ, is that it operated in English and the PJ had neither the linguistic ability nor experience to use it effectively. I'm sure it could have been a valuable tool in processing the questionnaires, but it would have needed to have been done by TASK people, probably on their own initiative, rather than at the request of PJ.

None of this is a restriction to OG if they are doing their job properly.

My major concern with OG is that it won't be a team member who will be making the final decisions, but someone much further up the command chain and possibly not even a member of the UK Justice system.

Why do you make the assumption that the PJ did not have enough knowledge of English or the experience to use HOLMES? Do you know that this is a fact?

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Admin2 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:27 am

Grom wrote:
AJS wrote:"I don't believe in a large scale conspiracy.

However, I would suggest the operating parameters for OG were made higher up...Whether any more material is published on the background to the case is open to debate, and personally I would suggest that there would be egg on too many faces for anything else than another shelving of the case, without any further 'progress."

Hi. But as I've pointed out elsewhere about others you are making a cast-iron guarantee that you will never know the truth about this case.

How can you? Since you have no faith in your own police force or government to act in your interests and you believe them capable of blocking the emergence of the truth then it follows at once that whatever Grange or the CPS report you will never know whether to believe it. That leaves you rudderless.

But something else also follows from that reasoning: that whoever dealt with the child, say hypothetically K&G McCann, don't believe what you do at all but have an infinitely more comfortable and secure position. The fix is in and they have nothing much to fear, apparently,  whereas you, a decent and upright citizen who has done nothing wrong, are  left rudderless. Is that really how a democratic society works? Why on earth would it have evolved in such a self-defeating way that penalises the good and puts bad people - a threat to any community - in a more comfortable position that you?  

None of that is a criticism of you - far from it, I admire you - and I don't in any sense state that you are in the wrong. But I'm bewildered that anyone should believe such a thing without cast-iron evidence that our institutions - the police, the CPS, the government - are corrupted and useless. When were they corrupted and who did it?

Neither institutions nor individuals need to be corrupt to make wrong decisions. Wrong decisions can be made with the best of intentions. Only in hindsight do those concerned realise that they might have got it wrong. Individuals and institutions then begin to calculate the damage they might sustain and how to avoid that. I see this case as involving an excess of sympathy coupled with a lack of critical thinking, a readiness to believe that British is best, and a lack of foresight; not corruption as such.

Good points Grom.
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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Admin2 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:42 am

AJS wrote:"I don't believe in a large scale conspiracy.

However, I would suggest the operating parameters for OG were made higher up...Whether any more material is published on the background to the case is open to debate, and personally I would suggest that there would be egg on too many faces for anything else than another shelving of the case, without any further 'progress."

Hi. But as I've pointed out elsewhere about others you are making a cast-iron guarantee that you will never know the truth about this case.

How can you? Since you have no faith in your own police force or government to act in your interests and you believe them capable of blocking the emergence of the truth then it follows at once that whatever Grange or the CPS report you will never know whether to believe it. That leaves you rudderless.

But something else also follows from that reasoning: that whoever dealt with the child, say hypothetically K&G McCann, don't believe what you do at all but have an infinitely more comfortable and secure position. The fix is in and they have nothing much to fear, apparently,  whereas you, a decent and upright citizen who has done nothing wrong, are  left rudderless. Is that really how a democratic society works? Why on earth would it have evolved in such a self-defeating way that penalises the good and puts bad people - a threat to any community - in a more comfortable position that you?  

None of that is a criticism of you - far from it, I admire you - and I don't in any sense state that you are in the wrong. But I'm bewildered that anyone should believe such a thing without cast-iron evidence that our institutions - the police, the CPS, the government - are corrupted and useless. When were they corrupted and who did it?

An interesting reply.

However, you say I am making a 'cast-iron guarantee that you will never know the truth about this case'. No I am not, I just believe it very unlikely that the truth may ever emerge, and I do remain open to persuasion.

I almost hate to use a rather blatant cliché, but time will tell.
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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by AJS on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:47 pm

Hello. Yes, perhaps I wasn't interpreting you correctly. Cheers.

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Faithlilly on Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:17 pm

Many seem to believe that the part of OG's remit which says ' as if the abduction happened in the U.K.' is proof that the fate of the investigation was decided before it even began. I often wonder what else they think the remit could have said ? To say 'disappearance' would have left a question, no matter how small, over the McCanns guilt and can you imagine how that would be used by the couple if the investigation hadn't gone their way ? The cries of 'prejudice' would be so loud it would drown out everything else. I think it was you AJS who said some time ago ( and I paraphrase ) that to question the abduction is tantamount to accusing the parents. I believe whoever wrote the remit used 'abduction' as the least vexatious of opinions but always intended to work back from there, not forward.

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Admin2 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:57 pm

Faithlilly wrote:Many seem to believe that the part of OG's remit which says ' as if the abduction happened in the U.K.' is proof that the fate of the investigation was decided before it even began. I often wonder what else they think the remit could have said ? To say 'disappearance' would have left a question, no matter how small, over the McCanns guilt and can you imagine how that would be used by the couple if the investigation hadn't gone their way ? The cries of 'prejudice' would be so loud it would drown out everything else. I think it was you AJS who said some time ago ( and I paraphrase ) that to question the abduction is tantamount to accusing the parents. I believe whoever wrote the remit used 'abduction' as the least vexatious of opinions but always intended to work back from there, not forward.

That is a fair point Faithlilly.

However, I would add a simple question, since this case is really in the hands of the PJ.

Are all of missing children in the UK are automatically labelled ABDUCTION and NOT DISAPPEARANCE, ?
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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Faithlilly on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:01 pm

Admin wrote:
Faithlilly wrote:Many seem to believe that the part of OG's remit which says ' as if the abduction happened in the U.K.' is proof that the fate of the investigation was decided before it even began. I often wonder what else they think the remit could have said ? To say 'disappearance' would have left a question, no matter how small, over the McCanns guilt and can you imagine how that would be used by the couple if the investigation hadn't gone their way ? The cries of 'prejudice' would be so loud it would drown out everything else. I think it was you AJS who said some time ago ( and I paraphrase ) that to question the abduction is tantamount to accusing the parents. I believe whoever wrote the remit used 'abduction' as the least vexatious of opinions but always intended to work back from there, not forward.

That is a fair point Faithlilly.

However, I would add a simple question, since this case is really in the hands of the PJ.

Are all of missing children in the UK are automatically labelled ABDUCTION and NOT DISAPPEARANCE, ?

Only the ones whose parents have astronomically paid lawyers !

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Admin2 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:32 pm

Faithlilly wrote:
Admin wrote:
Faithlilly wrote:Many seem to believe that the part of OG's remit which says ' as if the abduction happened in the U.K.' is proof that the fate of the investigation was decided before it even began. I often wonder what else they think the remit could have said ? To say 'disappearance' would have left a question, no matter how small, over the McCanns guilt and can you imagine how that would be used by the couple if the investigation hadn't gone their way ? The cries of 'prejudice' would be so loud it would drown out everything else. I think it was you AJS who said some time ago ( and I paraphrase ) that to question the abduction is tantamount to accusing the parents. I believe whoever wrote the remit used 'abduction' as the least vexatious of opinions but always intended to work back from there, not forward.

That is a fair point Faithlilly.

However, I would add a simple question, since this case is really in the hands of the PJ.

Are all of missing children in the UK are automatically labelled ABDUCTION and NOT DISAPPEARANCE, ?

Only the ones whose parents have astronomically paid lawyers !

Something tells me whichever police force had investigated this case, the McCann's would play the hard done by act, and as you said Faithlilly, expensive lawyers do come in handy, especially when they were paid for by other peoples donations.

I wonder how quickly this case might have been resolved but for the Mccann's legal team, including of course, Micheal Caplan QC.
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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Grom on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:33 pm

Someone made a good point to me yesterday too. Saying 'the parents are not suspects' relies on what is meant by ;suspect'. People can be suspected and investigated without being 'suspects' in any formal legal sense.

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Re: Has this case driven some of the McCann supporters over the edge?

Post by Admin2 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:34 pm

Grom wrote:Someone made a good point to me yesterday too. Saying 'the parents are not suspects' relies on what is meant by ;suspect'. People can be suspected and investigated without being 'suspects' in any formal legal sense.

Fair point.
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