was it right that the mcanns left the children alone?

What do you think about A C Rowley's recent statement?

"In terms of Andy using the word abduction, she was not old enough to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted."

AJS wrote:"Otherwise I'm largely with Travers about them not having been questioned. Look, even now if they all stick together and say nothing to police questions they may well get away with doing so, if there is no supporting forensic evidence. I simply don't know. As for Yard unwillingness to ask them, I repeat what I've said before: anyone who accuses the Yard of holding back any prosecution because of improper pressure in the UK, then has to explain  how this pressure has also worked in Portugal, since the PJ have been re-investigating just as long as Grange has. If they cannot explain that properly then the idea remains an unsupported  suspicion, not a working theory.

The PJ have let SY have their rope and SY have used it it,look at the digs,talk with with some one in Luz and have them explain it,it is a mystery,the questioning of the supposed burgalars that was after the digs which yielded zip,insitgated by SY.Hogan Howe talked of the two teams having different lines of enquiry but working together to try and resolve that.The budget to date for SY is circa £12 million,can you come with a figure for the PJ? I'll wager I'm not far wrong when that figure (£12 million)is likely to be the whole budget for a years worth of PJ policing.

Grom wrote:What do you think about A C Rowley's recent statement?

"In terms of Andy using the word abduction, she was not old enough to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted."

He seems to be ruling out any possibility of her having got out by herself and just 'fallen down a hole' never to be seen again.
This suggests that they have evidence that this didn't happen.

The second thing is that he is distancing himself from Redwood's interpretation of abduction by stranger by widening the normal understanding of abduction. He could have been clearer by using the word 'removed' but that perhaps would have been a step too far.

This makes sense if they know that Madeleine was dead before she left the apartment.
Again this must mean that this have something to support this. The behaviour of the dogs?

Rowley didn't actually rule out the possibility of Madeleine leaving under her own steam. He ruled out the possibility of her leaving to 'start her own life'. No-one, as far as I know, has ever suggested she might have.

What has been suggested is that she may have left to look for her parents. According to her friends Kate McCann saw this as a viable scenario at around 9 pm on 3rd May.

Grom wrote:Rowley didn't actually rule out the possibility of Madeleine leaving under her own steam. He ruled out the possibility of her leaving to 'start her own life'. No-one, as far as I know, has ever suggested she might have.

What has been suggested is that she may have left to look for her parents. According to her friends Kate McCann saw this as a viable scenario at around 9 pm on 3rd May.

I wonder if that conversation ever took place, or is just a bit narrative back-fill ?

If it didn't actually take place there must have been a motive for saying it did.

Grom wrote:If it didn't actually take place there must have been a motive for saying it did.

The motive could be justification for leaving the door open, besides the selfish one of a shorter journey.
Also a ready made excuse to explain how an intruder got in.

Travers: "He seems to be ruling out any possibility of her having got out by herself and just 'fallen down a hole' never to be seen again.
This suggests that they have evidence that this didn't happen."

I am at a loss to know why I keep finding myself in agreement with Travers, about whom I know nothing, but perhaps it means that the known facts are beginning to cause a convergence towards a more or less collective, as KM might say, view. At least for the time being.

That is certainly the case on Ros's blog, the only other place I post, where the sense of a convergence is quite strong, with the Pit loonies having fallen  silent and the supporters simply hurling abuse. The gap is being filled with  the appearance, or re-appearance, of some highly knowledgeable and intelligent posters with similar views of where the evidence seems to be leading - but without "theories".

Rowley appears to me as one of the more transparent people in this whole affair. Unlike Redwood, who no doubt was a good copper but a poor communicator, he has the gift of somehow making it clear that there are things that he has to say while saying them. And then there are things that he wants to and says.

Granted, it's a decoding job - but then it's been a decoding job since the PJ team began sending coded messages to the Portuguese press a decade ago.  

Unlike Redwood, who kind of publicly executed Bundleman, with results that we wait to see, Rowley quietly eases McCann claims over the side like dead sailors.

Travers wrote:

Grom wrote:What do you think about A C Rowley's recent statement?

"In terms of Andy using the word abduction, she was not old enough to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted."

He seems to be ruling out any possibility of her having got out by herself and just 'fallen down a hole'  never to be seen again.
This suggests that they have evidence that this didn't happen.

The second thing is that he is distancing himself from Redwood's interpretation of abduction by stranger by widening the normal understanding of abduction. He could have been clearer by using the word 'removed' but that perhaps would have been a step too far.

This makes sense if they know that Madeleine was dead before she left the apartment.
Again this must mean that this have something to support this.  The behaviour of the dogs?

Absolutely the dogs and Smithman. They connect to a deceased Madeleine being taken towards the beach (SY thought the wasteland). Adrian Prout was no longer a suspect after Eddie alerted. He became a suspect again when he was arrested.

From tapas staff accounts, it appears they were not checking on the children as regular as they claimed so that suggests they worked together to cover checks up. I believe only two or three know what happened to Madeleine that evening/night. Most were running around like headless chickens in a blind panic. That was great for Smithman to sneak away and do what had to be done.

I would like to think Operation Grange are heading in the right direction, but I'm not convinced. I don't even know what the right direction is, to be fair.

All I know is that I haven't been convinced by the stranger abduction story.

I cannot make my mind up about Operation Grange at all.

Redwood never struck as me as being very dynamic, more of a plodder.
Was he put in place as SIO because he could be relied on to do as he was told?
Was the team similarly staffed with competent but steady officers, known not to rock the boat? No rogue cop, ready to challenge the investigative line of an abductor and no suspicion of it being an inside job.
If so, why was he replaced by Ms Wall? She came with the reputation of a go-getter, a potential high-flyer. Why put her in charge if it was all to be a white-wash job?

Has it been realised that a cover-up simply won't do?
Have the PJ genuinely got something that OG daren't ignore in case it is leaked if not followed through?

Will we end up with a version of the truth like South Yorkshire have done with the Needham case, rather than the whole truth, warts and all?

Who knows? I certainly don't.

I think we may have ended up with a version of the truth had Portugal not had the lead in this. Looking at it from their point of view any solution which damaged the reputations of Portugal or it's authorities would surely not be acceptable.

There is a danger of becoming snowblind with nebulous detail. Which is not surprising in a case suffering from chaff overload.
Concentrate on what is known and what is recorded in statements.
Establish what each police force can and can not do.
Understand the mechanisms which must be used for the two police forces to communicate and cooperate.
Accept that some cases are never solved.
Accept that in some cases there is insufficient evidence to bring a charge which will result in a successful prosecution.
Realise that conspiracy theories always work with hindsight but rarely are a reality.
Most people when panicking, panic in their thinking.
Now back to the police.
The MPS for all they are viewed as supermen in some quarters cannot charge anyone with an offence outwith their bailiwick. Have the T7 plus 2 have committed an offence within the MPS bailiwick ? Flakey child care and the disappearance of a minor took place in someone else's bailiwick.
If the MPS ask the Portuguese to do something it can legitimately be greeted by "That is not permissible under our system".
A bit random but a few basics to chew over.

I think Operation Grange may have learned what the Portuguese system requires. According to Rowley;

"the legal requirements the Portuguese have is quite labour intensive in terms of dotting I’s and crossing T’s"

I wonder what he meant?

Grom wrote:I think Operation Grange may have learned what the Portuguese system requires. According to Rowley;

"the legal requirements the Portuguese have is quite labour intensive in terms of dotting I’s and crossing T’s"

I wonder what he meant?

How about " we can't get away with our cowboy ways over there" ?

That's what I was thinking lol.

A very interesting read.

Leaving the children alone and claiming it is a UK cultural thing was a warning shot across the bow.
This is how they were going to play it- defence - deny- defence -deny find others to share the blame then make sure they take the blame. Deflect and answer questions with questions.. nice ploy.

The thing I found most disturbing regarding the conversation about leaving the children was after young Maddie challened the parents (we never did get a clear begining to end of that conversation) about being left alone, Sean was crying.Those callous Bs did leave them alone again!. Honestly, I feel absolute disgust at any parent who would do this. Maddie must have been freightened when she discovered she was left alone with her baby siblings. I mean OMG!