Daily Mail article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5048349/The-TWO-vital-Maddie-questions.html   Comments allowed

A more balanced, questioning article than some IMO

'The demand from many quarters — from the McCanns, from the public, from politicians — for the investigation to continue is, of course, entirely understandable.'


What demand would that be then ?

Hardly supported by the comments section, which of course is edited.

'Disquiet about Operation Grange is nothing new. In 2015, John Tully, then chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation, argued that, in a time of cuts at home, Scotland Yard should not be used to conduct inquiries into matters abroad.'

‘It is surprising to see an inquiry like the McCann investigation ring-fenced,’ he said. ‘I have heard a few rumblings of discontent about it.’


According to Paul Luckman, of English-language newspaper The Portugal News: ‘There was this slightly arrogant British assumption that: “We’ll come in and show you how to conduct an investigation”. Well, we’ve seen the result.

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CPN wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5048349/The-TWO-vital-Maddie-questions.html   Comments allowed

A more balanced, questioning article than some IMO

Thanks for posting CPN.

It is a more rounded article.

You are welcome, SH!

"Some police critics of Operation Grange point to what they see as its ‘original sin’ — the failure of the Met’s team to re-interview Gerry and Kate McCann and the so-called Tapas Seven, the friends with whom they were dining in a restaurant at the Ocean Club on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance.
This, it is argued, should have been a basic first step in a reinvestigation while implying no guilt on the part of those involved"

and

"Might not a British interviewer of the McCanns and their friends have picked up on something not spotted by the Portuguese?
Speaking shortly before the tenth anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance, Mr Rowley explained: ‘We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was all dealt with, and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that that was a line of investigation.’
According to a friend of the McCanns, ‘it would have been hugely insulting to Kate and Gerry if their original statements had been questioned. There was no need to say anything more because everything had been said’.
What this meant in practice was that abduction, either by design or as the result of a break-in gone wrong, was the only consideration for the Grange team"

Those are the bits I appreciate. Apart from anything else, the original enquiries were either made by people with, presumably, English as a second language, or were translated. The UK police would have interviewed in English. To me this was one of the biggest omissions and , maybe, says a lot about the whole situation

Whether Kate and Gerry would have liked it is irrelevant - they were the obvious people to interview first

An article based on a realistic approach to this case has been overdue.

I wonder if others will follow.

CPN wrote:You are welcome, SH!

"Some police critics of Operation Grange point to what they see as its ‘original sin’ — the failure of the Met’s team to re-interview Gerry and Kate McCann and the so-called Tapas Seven, the friends with whom they were dining in a restaurant at the Ocean Club on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance.
This, it is argued, should have been a basic first step in a reinvestigation while implying no guilt on the part of those involved"

and

"Might not a British interviewer of the McCanns and their friends have picked up on something not spotted by the Portuguese?
Speaking shortly before the tenth anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance, Mr Rowley explained: ‘We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was all dealt with, and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that that was a line of investigation.’
According to a friend of the McCanns, ‘it would have been hugely insulting to Kate and Gerry if their original statements had been questioned. There was no need to say anything more because everything had been said’.
What this meant in practice was that abduction, either by design or as the result of a break-in gone wrong, was the only consideration for the Grange team"

Those are the bits I appreciate.  Apart from anything else, the original enquiries were either made by people with, presumably, English as a second language, or were translated.  The UK police would have interviewed in English.  To me this was one of the biggest omissions and , maybe, says a lot about the whole situation

Whether Kate and Gerry would have liked it is irrelevant - they were the obvious people to interview first

They stand or fall on those statements imo,there is no need to revisit.

Admin wrote:

CPN wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5048349/The-TWO-vital-Maddie-questions.html   Comments allowed

A more balanced, questioning article than some IMO

Thanks for posting CPN.

It is a more rounded article.

Does seem to be,one thing I thought might happen is if there is a plethora of bad news like the sex scandal's now then it would be a good time to bury Grange,don't think its going to happen somehow.

enyam wrote:

Admin wrote:

CPN wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5048349/The-TWO-vital-Maddie-questions.html   Comments allowed

A more balanced, questioning article than some IMO

Thanks for posting CPN.

It is a more rounded article.

Does seem to be,one thing I thought might happen is if there is a plethora of bad news like the sex scandal's now then it would be a good time to bury Grange,don't think its going to happen somehow.

Hey cool cats and hats we come to praise OG not to bury it.................

I don't like the bit about the Plum Coloured Bulgarian in the DM article. More chaff.
OG chasing all over Europe? with only four men and a dog? OG is assisting the Portuguese, according to it's remit and senior Met occifers, so why have the Portuguese sub-contracted the chasing of the Bold Bulgar to The Met. rather than do it themselves?

Ayfive wrote:

enyam wrote:

Admin wrote:

CPN wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5048349/The-TWO-vital-Maddie-questions.html   Comments allowed

A more balanced, questioning article than some IMO

Thanks for posting CPN.

It is a more rounded article.

Does seem to be,one thing I thought might happen is if there is a plethora of bad news like the sex scandal's now then it would be a good time to bury Grange,don't think its going to happen somehow.

Hey cool cats and hats we come to praise OG not to bury it.................

I don't like the bit about the Plum Coloured Bulgarian in the DM article. More chaff.
OG chasing all over Europe? with only four men and a dog? OG is assisting the Portuguese, according to it's remit and senior Met occifers, so why have the Portuguese sub-contracted the chasing of the Bold Bulgar to The Met. rather than do it themselves?

Yes, that part, seems like the creation of Clarence Mitchell, and his views on what material should be released to the press are known from his time with Blair's government.

A further updated Mail article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5051251/Maddie-detectives-scour-Bulgaria-woman-purple.html

I wonder why they bothered.

I've posted a comment about how the interviewing of the McCanns and mates should have been the first thing the UK police did, whether the McCanns liked it or not, if only to try and clarify some of the contradictions, and how the Portuguese police get criticised for the way they handled the situation but maybe the UK Police should be criticised for this also. We will see if it is published!

CPN wrote:I've posted a comment about how the interviewing of the McCanns and mates should have been the first thing the UK police did, whether the McCanns liked it or not, if only to try and clarify some of the contradictions, and how the Portuguese police get criticised for the way they handled the situation but maybe the UK Police should be criticised for this also.  We will see if it is published!  

Quite right.

Let's see if it gets past the DM censors.

This article is quite clever, and puts the McCanns and the Met between a rock and a hard place.

If the Portuguese investigation was as bad as claimed, then why was the entire group not reinterviewed?

If the Met position is that they are quite happy with the interviews conducted by the PJ, they are in effect saying that they are happy with one formal interview in the presence of her husband and a second where she refused to answer any questions being the totality of the formal questioning of the mother of the missing child and the person who claims to have discovered the child was missing.

I spent more time than that giving witness statements with respect to a theft I witnessed. It is completely bonkers

The woman in purple.......

Watcher wrote:This article is quite clever, and puts the McCanns and the Met between a rock and a hard place.

If the Portuguese investigation was as bad as claimed, then why was the entire group not reinterviewed?

If the Met position is that they are quite happy with the interviews conducted by the PJ, they are in effect saying that they are happy with one formal interview in the presence of her husband and a second where she refused to answer any questions being the totality of the formal questioning of the mother of the missing child and the person who claims to have discovered the child was missing.

...It is completely bonkers

Indeed, it just isn't credible, and it reinforces my doubts over everything to do with OG.

The archiving despatch highlighted many unanswered questions, most of which involved the Tapas 9, so there is no objective, reasonable way in which the original investigation, as shelved, coild be said to be satisfactory so far as the Tapas group is concerned, and Rowley's comment, when put on the spot, was a totally unconvincing and non-credible attempt at explaining the OG remit.

Texty wrote:

Watcher wrote:This article is quite clever, and puts the McCanns and the Met between a rock and a hard place.

If the Portuguese investigation was as bad as claimed, then why was the entire group not reinterviewed?

If the Met position is that they are quite happy with the interviews conducted by the PJ, they are in effect saying that they are happy with one formal interview in the presence of her husband and a second where she refused to answer any questions being the totality of the formal questioning of the mother of the missing child and the person who claims to have discovered the child was missing.

...It is completely bonkers

Indeed, it just isn't credible, and it reinforces my doubts over everything to do with OG.

The archiving despatch highlighted many unanswered questions, most of which involved the Tapas 9, so there is no objective, reasonable way in which the original investigation, as shelved, coild be said to be satisfactory so far as the Tapas group is concerned, and Rowley's comment, when put on the spot, was a totally unconvincing and non-credible attempt at explaining the OG remit.

Try coming at it from another angle.
Rowley said they were content to rely on the original investigation.That is not quite the same as saying they are happy with or indeed believe the content of the statements.
The PJ took statements from the T9 and thought the timelines were a fabrication. Contrary to what the supporters and MSM will tell you the PJ were not reliant on wet ended pencils and post its. They used a very state of the art software system through which they bunged the data and produced what might be called "timeway diagrams". It's on the files. Sr Rebelo was rather keen to have all the protagonists in Portugal for a reconstitution of those events presumably resultant from the analysis. We know that reconstitution didn't happen. The Met's position becomes clear. The PJ present the statements then the software analysis, which does not tally; the PJ produce the email exchanges between the T9, PJ and LP. These are an eye opener in their own right with a very curt mail from the PJ to Stuart Prior. That is what The Met will have. Can anything more usefully be done? probably not. The issue will be, do the Portuguese want The Met to re-interview the T9 as again contrary to popular belief it is a Portuguese show. Answer probably not as what will it achieve that has not been achieved already ? The next round of interviews with T9 would be if and when a case goes to court, there is no point until then.
Also keep in mind the case was filed[archived] because there was no evidence of what crime if any was carried out or its perpetrator added to which the filing process does not examine the merits of the proceedings to the date of the filing.

"Try coming at it from another angle"

- in which case, it wouldn't then be normal procedure to spend years and £millions checking out every known paedophile who's ever been anywhere near PDL, without any indication or evidence that it was a paedophile-related abduction. It doesn't stack up, either way.

The landfill site(s) where the waste from PDL was taken that week could have been searched for a fraction of the amount spent, as is currently being done in a case in the UK.

Neither Theresa May nor Sir Paul Stephenson had wanted the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) to be involved in the case. Then:
On 12 May 2011 the MPS announced that, at the request of the Home Secretary, it had agreed to bring its particular expertise to the Madeleine McCann case. The then Commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, considered the request and took the decision that on balance it was the right thing to do. This was subject to funding being made available by the Home Office, as this case is beyond the MPS's jurisdiction. The review, called Operation Grange (OG) was launched following a request to the MPS from Home Secretary Theresa May, with the support of the Prime Minister David Cameron. The issue of whether this request was the result of "threats" or "persuasion" from Rebekah Brooks was one of the issues raised at the Leveson Inquiry.

IMO the creation of O.G. was the result of actions taken by a weak leader after allowing himself to be shanghaied by members of the fourth estate.

Also IMO there have been unrealistic expectations on both sides of the divide with respect to what O. G. could or should achieve. One side will remain dissatisfied until the McCanns have been gibbeted, the other side will remain dissatisfied until the McCanns have been completely exonerated. Neither is likely to happen as a result of Operation Grange….. as the case is beyond the MPS's jurisdiction.

Quite what O.G. has been doing, how much has been spent, how many smelly bin men, dead tractor men, paedophiles, pig farmers, petty burglars and purple widows have been interviewed, chased after or whatever is really just fun coffee shop talk, generated for the most part by the MSM, that just cannot be taken seriously.
At the end of it all OG potentially will be able to say “we covered everything even down to the most unlikely avenues and there is/is not evidence of...............” In fact if you look at the last update from OG it said pretty much that.

The crime if any was committed in Portugal. It’s what the Portuguese Judiciary say that carries weight not a bunch of foreign coppers who are but civilians in Portugal.
Should O.G discover a crime committed in their bailiwick different rules will apply.

The Assistant Chief Constable of Leicestershire Police, stated in July 2008:”While one or both of them [the McCanns] may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.“

Og should have taken it back to the begining anyway. They should have synced their watches and pounced on the tapas 9 unannounced and demanded they asnswer questions. Down the station. Which is what would have happened in the UK has the 'abduction' happened here. this is what they are claiming they are doing-investigating as if it happened here.

The PJ did seem to have been left footed by the TAPAS crew. all that bloody nonsence tearing a book collaberating evidence to cover each other...providing dodgy alibies for each other is what it seemes like to me. IMO