Smithman's Destination

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Smithman's Destination

Post by pathfinder73 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:50 pm

What do you think happened to Madeleine if Smithman took her? Was she hidden? Bushes, drain pipe, trench, beach/cliffs, inside a property. Or was she disposed? Bin/sea. Please discuss.

Friday 4 May.

Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents.

A lady from an apartment across Rua Dr Gentil Martins, overlooking our little side gate, came over to speak to us. She said that the previous night she had seen a car going up the Rocha Negra – the black, volcanic cliff that dominates the village. There was a track leading to the Rocha Negra but nobody remembered ever having noticed any vehicle that far up in the daytime, let alone at night. This immediately conjured visions of Madeleine being disposed of somewhere on the overhanging cliff. I went to tell one of the police officers who was able to speak a little English. He was quite dismissive. It would have been one of the GNR men checking the area, he said. (Madeleine by KM)

Me and Gerry you know I'm not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o' clock when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach............. and he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

We made Kate and Gerry a mattress up on the floor and we chatted some more and by about half four, we'd all decided to just try and lay down, at least just to, to get a rest if not sleep. Erm, Dave and I went into our room with Scarlet and sort of left Kate and Gerry in the living room with the twins really. I think Dave and I must have actually eventually dozed off for a bit, cos we got woken up by Kate knocking on the door and just you know, as I said earlier, suggesting they, they couldn't sleep, they couldn't, they couldn't rest and they were just, it was driving them up the wall, just sitting there and not doing anything and they wanted to go out and look and would we just keep an eye on the twins'.

1485
'Can you remember what sort of time that was roughly''

Reply
'Erm it was still very cold and, and dark, erm I think it was you know, between five and six.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by pathfinder73 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:08 pm

3 May 2007
Kate McCANN came running down, she didn’t, I don’t think she stopped to speak to us, as far as I recall, erm, and she carried on up on the hard sand, quite near to the water, away towards, towards I think what’s called Black Rock, it’s a big kind of cliff, just erm, just east of the beach, erm, gave a bit of a wave of acknowledgement, erm, and as we were discussing earlier, I think she had a fairly sort of standard running kit on her, a pair of, of, erm, of shorts that, erm, and a, and a, and a, either a very sort of light tee-shirt or maybe a kind of running vest, I don’t remember which way round, but I saw, I seem to remember one being grey and one being a kind of navy blue, but which way round that is, I’m not sure.  Anyway so she ran off and, erm, I don’t, I don’t remember her coming back, but as time went on, I think the kids were getting a little bit hungry, so we drifted back up the beach to the, the Paradiso Restaurant.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

Gerry at Black Rock aka Rocha Negra wearing the t-shirt that I believe Eddie also alerted to.


"seen a car going up the Rocha Negra – the black, volcanic cliff that dominates the village........This immediately conjured visions of Madeleine being disposed of somewhere on the overhanging cliff." (Madeleine by KM)


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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Grom on Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:20 pm

Saturday 5th May

I also felt a compulsion to run up to the top of the
Rocha Negra. Somehow, inflicting physical pain on
myself seemed to be the only possible way of
escaping my internal pain.......

Monday 14 May. Today I went for my first run since
Madeleine was taken......My child had suffered
and therefore so must I..............[madeleine]

My child had suffered? Is her suffering over then?

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by pathfinder73 on Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:37 pm

Thanks. If I hid something that I didn't want found then I would probably return to make sure it couldn't be so Rocha Negra is an area of interest.

Google Earth images

















For scale


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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by pathfinder73 on Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:12 pm

That first weekend I’d felt a burning desire to run up the Rocha Negra, and Gerry and I would in fact do so many times over the next few months. In places it was just too steep and I had to slow down to walking speed, but if I dared to stop (interpreted by my brain as failure) I would mentally beat myself up. It still felt as if every challenge had to be met on Madeleine’s behalf. I wouldn’t recommend such mind games: they certainly don’t make life any easier. But as Gerry will readily confirm, I can be quite stubborn, though I’d prefer to call it determined.

The meeting ended with a final body blow. Danie Krugel, on whom we had, irrationally, hung so much hope, had produced a report for the PJ based on his findings. His machine had recorded a ‘static signal’ from an area around the beach, close to or on the Rocha Negra cliff. Although this included villas, apartments and other buildings, the implication of the ‘static signal’ was that Madeleine was most likely to be dead and buried there.

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Miss B Having on Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:10 pm

Grom wrote:Saturday 5th May

I also felt a compulsion to run up to the top of the
Rocha Negra. Somehow, inflicting physical pain on
myself seemed to be the only possible way of
escaping my internal pain.......

Monday 14 May. Today I went for my first run since
Madeleine was taken......My child had suffered
and therefore so must I..............[madeleine]

My child had suffered? Is her suffering over then?

Well her 'suffering' was hardly worth a mention really. It was discussed and decided and announced that Maddie came to no harm. None. She was ' taken' by a childless couple who showered her with love dontcha know.

them b@stads jemmied a shutter, opened a window grabbed her from her bed jumped back out the window- reminds me of the old mlik tray advert from old TV series... all within 10 minutes. I bet the ' new mother' went back and cleaned all the DNA when no one was looking...

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Grom on Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:56 am

It was the past tense which interested me; she had suffered, but not any more. In what way had she suffered Kate, and how d you know it stopped?

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by pathfinder73 on Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:20 pm

https://twitter.com/AdrianGatton

Henri Exton was in charge and running the investigation.

Adrian Gatton

@AdrianGatton
2h2 hours ago

Detectives from Operation Grange have the "Final Report". Some say it served as a roadmap for the investigation. One question though: which edition of the report did Op Grange receive and did they receive the draft editions also? #Halligen #McCann #OperationOmega

But Halligen was not in charge of the investigation to find Madeleine McCann. Henri Exton was in charge and his own team did 'collection' (gathering intel), witness and source interviews, analysis, tasking, targeting, surveillance, covert, efits, report writing, etc ...




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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Grom on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:49 pm

Interestingly that report is dated November 17th 2008. Oakley's contract was for six months, beginning at the end of March 2008. That means it was due to end at the end of September 2008.

Rumours about Halligen prompted us to make inquiries before we decided whether or not we should extend our contract with Oakley. To cut a long story short, we chose not to do so. The termination of the contract, in September 2008, was quite acrimonious, and unfortunately, that was not the end of it. [madeleine]

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by enyam on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:49 am

pathfinder73 wrote:What do you think happened to Madeleine if Smithman took her? Was she hidden? Bushes, drain pipe, trench, beach/cliffs, inside a property. Or was she disposed? Bin/sea. Please discuss.

Vehicle?
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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Grom on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:45 pm

Ocean.

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Miss B Having on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:56 pm

initially a property until her body could be disposed of properly.

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Travers on Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:03 pm

Miss B Having wrote:initially a property until her body could be disposed of properly.

Maybe the church yard. Could you conceal a body there for a short while?
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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by pathfinder73 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:54 pm

There was a building site behind the church at the time. There is nothing in the files about it being searched. I always thought when they went back out they better hid the body which was probably temporarily hidden under rocks on the dark empty beach initially by Smithman. Gary Ligg comments on that dark place being a good spot to quickly hide in the Dispatches documentary. They had been on the beach that week so maybe they remembered a good spot. I believe Smithman knew his destination and nine eye witnesses was not going to stop him by changing his mind to avoid and go in another direction. He was racing against the clock but his exact times is a real giveaway.

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Faithlilly on Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:31 am

pathfinder73 wrote:What do you think happened to Madeleine if Smithman took her? Was she hidden? Bushes, drain pipe, trench, beach/cliffs, inside a property. Or was she disposed? Bin/sea. Please discuss.

Friday 4 May.

Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents.

A lady from an apartment across Rua Dr Gentil Martins, overlooking our little side gate, came over to speak to us. She said that the previous night she had seen a car going up the Rocha Negra – the black, volcanic cliff that dominates the village. There was a track leading to the Rocha Negra but nobody remembered ever having noticed any vehicle that far up in the daytime, let alone at night. This immediately conjured visions of Madeleine being disposed of somewhere on the overhanging cliff. I went to tell one of the police officers who was able to speak a little English. He was quite dismissive. It would have been one of the GNR men checking the area, he said. (Madeleine by KM)

Me and Gerry you know I'm not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o' clock when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach............. and he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

We made Kate and Gerry a mattress up on the floor and we chatted some more and by about half four, we'd all decided to just try and lay down, at least just to, to get a rest if not sleep. Erm, Dave and I went into our room with Scarlet and sort of left Kate and Gerry in the living room with the twins really. I think Dave and I must have actually eventually dozed off for a bit, cos we got woken up by Kate knocking on the door and just you know, as I said earlier, suggesting they, they couldn't sleep, they couldn't, they couldn't rest and they were just, it was driving them up the wall, just sitting there and not doing anything and they wanted to go out and look and would we just keep an eye on the twins'.

1485
'Can you remember what sort of time that was roughly''

Reply
'Erm it was still very cold and, and dark, erm I think it was you know, between five and six.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm


I think it's possible Madeleine was placed in a municipal bin some distance from the apartment. Gerry covered both bases that way. If , during the inevitable searches that would follow, Madeleine was found, and if she had been sedated, the drugs in her system could be blamed on the abductor. Further if she had been injured in a fall her injuries could also be blamed on the abductor. Then again if she was not found Gerry may have planned to move her to somewhere more appropriate when things quietened down. Of course he wouldn't realise that the bins are emptied in the early hours of the morning in PDL so he possibly went down with Payne with the intention of moving her body to a more appropriate hiding place and found her body gone. Perhaps he also showed Kate were her daughter had been because when she describes looking in the bin I believe her.

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Miss B Having on Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:43 am

Yes... sounds believable faith...
Ofcourse we have not discussed the reasons as to why the parent/s would want to get rid of their child s body? Will we go with the most likely scenario.

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by AJS on Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:04 pm

Hello.

It was established many years ago that not only  is PDL rubbish   hand sorted for "inappropriate" items by the authorities before treatment/disposal but additional  specific searches for the child's body or body parts were  ordered by the PJ of the refuse from all sources. Nothing was found.

If one is going to talk about such unsavoury possibilities then a bin bag left in or by the sea would also do the job. It wouldn't have mattered if searches found the bag relatively quickly - there would obviously be innocent DNA in it and on it from the parents (5A bag used by the intruder), abduction evidence had been provided, an apparent intruder had been seen hurrying away and, thanks to the speedy response of the Nine in raising alerts etc., no doubt "an abductor" found the child too dangerous to carry, dead or alive, and dumped it.

If anyone  did it, the expectation was no doubt that the bag would be found within 10/24 hours. It probably never happened but, despite the data on local tides provided for Harrison, the sea has its own ways.

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Travers on Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:29 pm

I'm not sure that a body would wash out to sea from the shore, but I have wondered if one was taken a mile or two off-shore in a catamaran for disposal.
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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Slartibartfast on Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:52 pm

Travers wrote:I'm not sure that a body would wash out to sea from the shore, but I have wondered if one was taken a mile or two off-shore in a catamaran for disposal.

With tide and current information it should be possible to calculate a time based destination based on deposit in the sea time and place.
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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Travers on Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:01 pm

I'm sure it is, but how far out to sea would it need to be deposited to ensure it didn't wash right back in again?
If weighted down, it isn't going to float out to sea, it would need to be taken some distance out.

I favour a boat
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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by pathfinder73 on Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:50 pm

Thanks for your responses.

If you think in to the sea then that could have happened at Kate's Rocks IMO.

"I went out to the rocks on the beach. I cried a lot and spoke to Madeleine and to God."

"Gerry turned up and joined me and we went down as far as the rocks on the beach and talked a little about Madeleine."

"Gerry and I were able to seek solace at Nossa Senhora da Luz, I spent time at my rocks on the beach and we caught up with friends. To this day I still return quietly to Luz from time to time to feel Madeleine close to me."

"Finally, I would like to thank my husband, Gerry – for his love, support and companionship. We’ve been in this together throughout and always will be. And, of course, dear Amelie and Sean, my amazing little rocks."


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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by AJS on Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:31 pm

Hello again. The attractiveness of a body/bodybag dumped in the expectation that it will be found is  that it fits just about every known fact and most of the suppositions as well as the PJ view of accidental death, while not making any ad hoc additions, the latter a sure sign of bolstering a theory, not leading up to it.

There is no need to get into a means of disposal by boat or car or double-header coffin, no need for bare-hand digging on the beach or finding a 100%  secure hiding place, no need for additional personnel.

None of the 7 need have been involved and indeed the sense of WTF, WTF am I being used? consistent with Oldfield's activities is quite consistent also with possible but unconfirmed suspicions leaving him with divided loyalties.

The rogatory interviews with their talk of tennis bags are clearly exploring the possibility of an earlier  daylight trip  with the child hidden - but again she could have been transferred to a plastic bag on arrival; Smithman obviously is the theoretical alternative mode of transport.

I considered it myself, first with the bins until it became clear that they couldn't have been used, then as above. The Harrison report on  the sea and its currents is the huge objection. But I know the sea well enough to be aware of the unpredictable things it can do.

The element of chance is always far more important in crimes, collective or otherwise, than the public believes.

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Travers on Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:39 pm

Do you not feel that dumping in the sea and hoping for the best just a little haphazard?
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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by AJS on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:03 pm

"Do you not feel that dumping in the sea and hoping for the best just a little haphazard?"

I certainly do but that's because I believe that there was very little time for planning anything and the circumstances would hardly have made cool thinking easy.

None of this is my own theory: I am simply accepting the PJ/Amaral line of investigation  that the McCanns hid the body after an accident, quite possibly on a beach, not actually in the sea, perhaps after  a very haphazard and perilous walk through the streets with a corpse.  

GA then postulated  that Gerry McCann hid the body very well, despite the difficulties of concealment and digging etc. outlined by the Harrison report and, since it was never found, suggested that GM or someone had come back and moved it at some time in the next few weeks.

There the line of investigation, for whatever reason, peters out and my own feelings come in. No evidence has ever been provided of how, who and when; until it is I find it at least as possible that it was  carried away by the sea.  

I'm not sure that hiding the body  and expecting it to be discovered subsequently was a poor move. There was no reason to believe that its discovery some distance away would incriminate the parents - as long as it was found after they had raised the "abductor" alarm. Anyway, I wait to see what has been discovered since.

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Re: Smithman's Destination

Post by Faithlilly on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:29 pm

AJS wrote:Hello.

It was established many years ago that not only  is PDL rubbish   hand sorted for "inappropriate" items by the authorities before treatment/disposal but additional  specific searches for the child's body or body parts were  ordered by the PJ of the refuse from all sources. Nothing was found.

If one is going to talk about such unsavoury possibilities then a bin bag left in or by the sea would also do the job. It wouldn't have mattered if searches found the bag relatively quickly - there would obviously be innocent DNA in it and on it from the parents (5A bag used by the intruder), abduction evidence had been provided, an apparent intruder had been seen hurrying away and, thanks to the speedy response of the Nine in raising alerts etc., no doubt "an abductor" found the child too dangerous to carry, dead or alive, and dumped it.

If anyone  did it, the expectation was no doubt that the bag would be found within 10/24 hours. It probably never happened but, despite the data on local tides provided for Harrison, the sea has its own ways.

As far as I was aware the landfill site nearest PDL hadn't been searched. That is interesting. When was that carried out ?

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